Question: Which was very hazardous for the destroyers.

Jack Williams: Damn right. It was hazardous for the planes coming back because, see, when we came in, they had, ... from the start, they had what they called IFF-- identification friend or foe. And ... you had to put that on with the idea that ... if you're not identified, they're going to shoot at you. And so we always had to have that on when we were coming into the fleet. But in '45, we not only had to have that on, but you had an approach sector. And your approach sector was in fifteen-degree segments on the compass, and it changed every twenty minutes. So that, if ... you came in sector where you hadn't changed, and you had to keep a close check on this thing, then they would shoot at you. ... Hell, I'd come in ... any number of times and ... there'd be a black burst up there, and I'd say, "Oh hell, wrong damn sector." ... So we'd go around and come in another sector.

Question: Navigational aids then, compared to what we have now. It was really tricky.

Jack Williams: Oh yeah, the system was-- see another thing you had radio silence, absolute radio silence. When we were on the Yorktown, you could not call in even if you were in trouble.

Question: So if you were going to go into the drink ...

Jack Williams: Yeah, but it's even worse than that. You'd take off here, your target's over here and you're here, and you're taking off. You fly to your target, and they say, "Tell you what we're going to do, we're going to meet you over here, you know, when it's over." So you rendezvous after your strike and you head to this point. But that's not what they did. They said we need a rain squall ... and they go over here. Now they're nowhere near the rendezvous point. You got a whole air group, I mean, a whole big 80-100 planes all showing up, some with problems, some not, and nobody's around. You can't get any signal. So you have to do a square search. So they do a square search. A square search is you go a certain distance this way, then you go a little further that way, a little further that way, a little further that way. You keep making like a maze until you finally pick up their signal, they happen to call a "homing signal." And then you can home in ... on it. They have all kinds of ways of getting you back, but ... flying in the navy and flying over water in a land plane has to develop a certain amount of ability, trust because you're depending on what? You're depending on compasses, depending on radios, depending on advice from others. ... And you will find that a lot of astronauts, for instance, are navy people, they were naval aviators, they weren't army air corps aviators.

Question: Now that I think of it, in fact, I think of most of them as being navy.

Jack Williams: And it's the training. I mean their training is entirely different. Anyway ... we operated, like I say, over Japan. I took what they call an air-sea-rescue eight-man life raft. And my job was to follow these hundred planes going in on a strike mission in the Sea of Japan, whatever they were going after, a lot of different places. And near ... Kure Harbor area, near Hiroshima, but we didn't know anything about that. We had orders not to touch Hiroshima, ... if our target was closed in, not to touch it, but we didn't know why. And--

Question: Did you wonder why?

Jack Williams: Hell no! ... I never even thought about it. I was following these hundred airplanes. There were more than that probably. And my job was after they went down and made the strike was to go find somebody that was shot down and was in the water in a life raft and to drop them this bigger life raft so that they could survive. And, then, give him instruction on how to get out because they were in a situation where, usually, it was a long arm of land, and they had to get out to sea. I would call ... the submarine rescue, ... so we did that, and I came back late ... it was getting downright dark when I got back, and I was anxious to get aboard. So somebody picked me up, and I landed. It turned out to be [the] Hancock instead of the Bennington, ... and I landed on the wrong carrier. And somebody said, "Aren't you glad we didn't say, `ah so!'? "...

Question: Was that the only time you landed on the wrong carrier?

Jack Williams: Yeah that was the only time that I did that-- that one time. I had about 67 carrier landings, I guess, probably.

Question: You had been on two different ships. What were the differences between the two?

Jack Williams: Absolutely. They were like the difference between day and night. The Yorktown was, like I told you earlier, it was a wonderful ship, well trained, good attitude.

Question: You seemed very close, you stayed close.

Jack Williams: Very close together. The ship operated as a unit well. And everybody that's ever written about it, I mean, all the other admirals, captains, every one of them say it was the outstanding ship, probably, in the navy during World War II. Just because of that attitude and everybody came aboard expected that. And if you have a chance, look at that Fighting Lady movie again because you really will enjoy it. You will relate to what I'm telling you. ... When it came to going out on the Bennington, and the Yorktown had [been] ... tremendously successful, you know, [as a] result of everything it did. No accidents, I mean to speak of. If a bomb went off, or if there was something rolled on the deck, there was always somebody ... going to grab it [and] throw it over the side before it went off. I mean, it was this kind of thing, really looking after the ship, ship oriented. ... We picked up the Bennington in ... I guess ... it was about June of '45. It was ... off Samar in the Philippines. And ... a lot of us had gotten flown over there, picked up aircraft and flew them aboard the ship. ... We had trained at Maui at ... Kahalui Naval Air Station, which is the airport now, if you fly into Maui anytime. And we've been back there a number of times. ... That was our training ground after we left the States, before ... we went out aboard the ship. So the general feeling was, you know, we were going to be out there and supporting the attack on Kyushu, which would be the invasion of Japan, but we weren't thinking of that, you know, we were just out there doing our job. Well ... the ship itself, the skipper was not really loved by everybody. He just wasn't, he was hard-nosed. ... There was a lot of friction on the ship, ... the skipper of the Bennnington. There was a lot of hard feelings that the thing was wrong. They just didn't like him, we didn't ...

Question: Was he very petty?

Jack Williams: Oh, I, no. I think he was more, just ahh, maybe like a tyrant more than anything else. I mean he was going to be in charge of everything, and he probably didn't want to listen to anybody. He wasn't a team man, I would have to say, probably.

Question: How did it compare to the Yorktown?

Jack Williams: The Yorktown was a team-- team operation right from the word go; marvelously sensitive people involved in it. You should read, you know, about the Yorktown sometime. We've got histories of them; I've got books on the Yorktown. You need to go to Charleston. Believe me, you're missing something.

Question: But the Bennington; you have a terrible skipper. It sounds like, not terrible in the sense that he did ...

Jack Williams: ... Keep in mind now that we're an air group. We're an air group, we're not ship's company. Okay? But our relations with him were not good. That time, when I came back and landed on the wrong carrier, to give an example. ... They came under attack immediately when I got there, so I had to spend the night there. And the next morning or later that night, I called, had them call ... the skipper of the Bennington and ask him if I could get deck launched, ... get catapulted and get over there. I wanted to land over there. I guess that was after when I first landed, when I first landed the evening before, before they got under attack. And ... apparently he said, "No." In fact, he said, "What I want him to do is." He said, "I want you to launch tomorrow morning at about 5:00. Let him do anti-submarine patrol for about five hours." You know, I mean that was, that was just the attitude that he had. ... Then, of course, they came under attack, and I just stayed there. But that kind of went through the ship. That ship eventually was the one that had the steam catapults blow up on them. Do you remember, later on? They had nothing but problems. They killed like twelve or fifteen men, not during the war, but it was after the war. But while we were ... off Okinawa, we were in a typhoon, and you've heard about that.

Question: A lot of people have said that typhoons were more frightening than the enemy.

Jack Williams: Oh, they're terrible. But I was on the Bennington in the typhoon off Okinawa. And you got to understand this. The flight deck is 70 feet above the water, okay? We were taking green water over the flight deck, not white water. Green water. 70 feet. This thing was riding up 70 feet and down 70 feet. And I stood in the catwalk, and I could still remember seeing us do that. ... Cruisers were disappearing in these troughs, ...

three destroyers sank. I mean, it was ridiculous. I was standing on this catwalk and I heard, "SNAP!" ... I looked over at the thing and here was a F-6F Hellcat that had snapped one of its tie down cables, snapped the other one and went whoosh, right over the side. Planes were flying off the deck, it was a mess! The water coming up hit the flight deck and snapped the flight deck. And so the Bennington ended up with about twelve or fifteen feet of its overhang of the flight deck down, hanging down. And you couldn't launch aircraft that way, see, because ... that's the area where the catapults are ... that you need to get off. So later on when the weather cleared up, for a while until they got it squared away, they launched them sailing backwards. The ship backed up, you know, you back up about ten-fifteen knots and you got a 30-knot wind ... across the stern and the ship got planes going 25 or 35, 40 miles per hour, you know, you've got enough to go up in the air. Anyway, that was an unusual thing, but this is getting down toward, of course, the end of the war. We did not know about the atomic bomb explosion.

Question: Well, no one did.

Jack Williams: In retrospect, we do remember that just before it happened, and ... we were operating over Japan making strikes on Tokyo, Yokohama, all this area. Got a picture right here of some runs we made on a battleship ... that was just sitting there at the naval dock because they didn't have any, anyway to go. They had no people, they had no planes, they had no ... ships that could move. They were in, you know, big trouble, but they weren't giving in, apparently. You know, I mean they were still decided that they were going to continue it anyway.

But we saw a number of, looked to me like Chiang Kai-shek, which were Chinese officers on the ship, you know, as if maybe they were ... coordinating something or wanted to be involved in, whatever was gonna happen. And then we were ... for two weeks we'd been dropping bombs. I'd been dropping bombs on a radar plant in the heart of Tokyo from 800 feet. Just going in, and one of the guys that comes to our meetings, he didn't get there this year. He got shot down in Tokyo Bay and got home before we did. But anyway, ... we were making these strikes every day and dropping bombs, and whatever you could. So then, ... we made a strike, and we were at 12,000 feet, just getting ready to push over. Must have been, could have been 300 airplanes. Sort of like, we call it an operation tin type. In other words, it was kind of like something for the newspapers to show, influence them and what not. We'd been doing the same deal every day. There wasn't anything standing in the center of Tokyo. But, just got ready to push over, and we got ... a radio announcement ... that said, "Jettison your bombs and return to base." Now here we are, right at the heart of Tokyo Bay, just getting ready to push over, so we turned around, all of us turned around, jettisoned our bombs, started back to the fleet. And I turned around, I told my, called my crew, and I said, "We're going home, get behind your armor plate." I turned around and looked back, and here were the American pilots, Corsairs, Hellcats, all over the sky. You tell an American the war's over, and he's gonna celebrate. You know, it would never occur to him that the war was still going on. They were all over the sky. I don't know how many of them were shot down by Japanese fighters. ... They were not protecting us as much as they were just really celebrating is what it amounts to. But anyway, we got back to the ship and the ship stayed there and operated. See, the bomb's already been dropped now. So we just ... did sort of utility type things.

And one thing that was fun that I did. I guess, I should put it in my history. Those of us that were involved probably thoroughly enjoyed it. But a navy captain on the ship was assigned to be a ... naval aide to our ambassador to London. And so he had to be flown in to a coastal naval air station which is right there by the water. And, of course, ... the thing hadn't been signed yet, but, I mean, he needed to get in there. So, there were still some Japanese around, I'm sure. But anyway, there were two torpedo bombers, myself and section leader and four corsair fighters, two on each side, and we went in and landed, let the fellow out, and I got ... probably should have been blown up. But I got out and walked in a building there and picked up an abacus. Should have been booby trapped, but I guess they didn't have time. Anyway, and I'd given that to Mother Wright, but then I never saw it again after that.

Question: So you actually landed in ...

Jack Williams: Oh yeah, landed in Japan, ... just between the time they said they were gonna surrender and the official surrender.

Question: The actual Armistice?

Jack Williams: Yeah right.

Question: Have you ever been back to Japan?

Jack Williams: No, I haven't. ... But anyway we ... took off. You know, the six planes, okay? Keep this in mind, we'd been at sea a long time. We'd been 106 days, I think, at sea or something like this. And so we started to fly at about four or five hundred feet ... right up Tokyo Bay, and all of a sudden, without any instructions, all of us turned and made a big chandelle turn. ... Everybody saw something. And they all went clear around without a signal, went down. They all ... put their flaps down, got down as slow as they could go. Got down to about 50 feet above the water. Just slow, ... just dragging the water. There were about 40 or 50 Japanese young girls in the water with bare from the middle up. And that was all that was out of the water. And I thought I would die. Those guys will never forget that. You've gotta remember that they'd been at sea a long time. But that looked awfully good probably at that point. That's the humorous side of the war. But anyway, so we went back.

... And this is another thing. And it's true, we'd got a picture of it. You've seen the flyover of the USS Missouri ... and all the planes, 1000 planes. Believe it or not, I'm number two plane of the whole damn deal, and ... my plane's circled in the picture. And the guy in front of me, I thought I was first, but I saw him at the reunion last year. He's down in Pensacola, now. And he said, "No you weren't; you couldn't have been first, ... because I was ahead of you, because I was taking the pictures."

U.S. Navy carrier planes fly in formation over USS Missouri (BB-63)
during the surrender ceremonies, 2 September 1945.
Photographed by Lieutenant Barrett Gallagher, USNR,
from atop Missouri's forward 16-inch gun turret.
Aircraft types include F4U, TBM and SB2C.
Ship in the right distance is USS Ancon (AGC-4).

Question: So your got to do the flyover?

Jack Williams: ... Our squadron ... headed the whole flyover, the whole deal. Well, then we stayed around after that about two or three weeks. And our job was to fly to prisoner of war camps. So we went out to the mountains in Japan, and they always had a prisoner of war camp at a mine, right at the base of the mountain. And our job was to find these camps, and then we had, they'd made up little kits, you know, little packages, which we would go over real low and drop them with the parachutes on them-- medical supplies. And you'd see all these guys out standing there, you know, glad to see us probably get there. There was quite a number of us that did this. Sometimes the supplies would drop outside and the Japanese would pick them up. So then we ... had to take Corsairs with us and have them strafe along side as we went in and dropped. But the problem was that you, they, were at the base of the hill and you can't get down to [a] real low speed and come in towards the hill because you could ... never get the hell out of there again. So we had to either come down the hill or we had to come in from the side and then slide across and do it. Well, one time when I went in, we had message drops which were nothing more then [a] little cloth thing with sand in it. You could put a message in it and drop it on a ship or somewhere without having to land. ... So .. we had one of those. So I wrote a note that said, "To all you wonderful allies and GIs, ... glad that we're here," and what not and wrote my crew's names and addresses and my name and address on them and dropped it into the compound. That Christmas I got cards from all over the world. And so did the other guys.

Question: Did you keep them?

Jack Williams: Yeah, I've got them. And I've got one from a colonel of the Royal ... Medical Corps, Whitehall, London, England. And he said, "That if you come to London, ... be my guest." We went over there about five years ago, and, of course, ... he'd died or something. We couldn't find him. But I'd brought one letter along with me. You might want to see it. ... This is from a fellow in Brooklyn. It's kind of interesting. ... He was a prisoner of war.

Question: "Dear Williams, I am on my way home after being a POW in Japan and I feel I must ... write to thank you and all of the other pilots of your squadron for what you call an unusual assortment of things, which you so kindly dropped on our camp. Number 8, Kosaka, on Sunday August 26th. You could have no idea how useful everything was, and how much joy they gave everyone in the camp. It was indeed a godsend from heaven. It answered, it arrived just at the right time when we were in want of everything. I cannot describe the joy and pleasure it was to see our American brethren circling above our camp, and I sincerely trust that you and your copilots are now safely back in USA. My address in England will be Lt. Colonel C.O. Schacklton RAMC care of (---------?) Glenn Mills, Wilkesbranch, Kirkland House, Whitehall SWL. Should you ever be in England, I would be delighted to have the opportunity of meeting you to thank you personally on behalf of the whole camp for your great mission of mercy. Sincerely, C.O. Schacklton at CHMS Suffolk, October 25, 1945." So you must have really felt like they really appreciated what you did.

Jack Williams: Yeah, that was the best part of the war, I mean that was my highlight of the war because I would have been the kind of guy to end up in there anyway.

Question: A lot of pilots have remembered their mercy drops. Let me ask this, throw this theory out. You were very conscious of destroying things, but this is where you're really helping someone.

Jack Williams: Yeah, right. Oh, I agree, ... when you go back, Room for One More in the story, and all that, and the Wrights. Really, I told her before she died, I said, "There's no way in the world that I can ever thank you." I said, "All I can do is do something for somebody else." And I suspect that's a kind of motivating base for me. So I get my kicks out of doing something for you. I mentioned to you that I played the piano. Well, when I play the piano, I play because you enjoy it. Not because I enjoy playing. If what I play you enjoy hearing, or something has some meaning to you, then I enjoy it. I played at the Million Dollar Round Table insurance meeting in Toronto about four years ago with 3000 people. And ... I've played in Europe at different hotels when we've been traveling and things like that. But anyway, the point is, my personality requires that I do something for somebody else. And if I were not in the life insurance business, I would have been in the ministry, I'm sure, because I have to pay something back.

Question: You seem to like insurance a great deal.

Jack Williams: Oh, yeah, it's fine. All the friends I have are clients in insurance. I mean, that's the reason I never can retire. I mean I've gotta be around as long as they ... let me. But anyway, I thought that would be interesting to you. The only other thing that I brought along ... my log book. And my son wants a copy of this, naturally. ... But it does have some interesting things in it. ... It shows you where you were and all of you're flying that you did.

Question: We would appreciate it if you could make a copy of it for us, I'm sure.

Jack Williams: Yeah, I know. ... If I do it with John, I'll have to do it for you people. But, this is just like the training part of it. Then you get in, you know, to '45, and of course, I stayed in the navy, see, after the war was over.

Question: You stayed in for quite a while.

Jack Williams: Yeah, I stayed in for ... two years.

Question: And you thought of making the navy a career?

Jack Williams: Yeah, I think I probably at one time did. But then there were, the opportunities weren't really there. But what I was gonna show you was here, see this says, "Strike Recall Syn pack," which was, of course, commander ... in chief.

Question: Now this was on August 15th that your strike was recalled.

Jack Williams: Yeah, right, yeah. See as soon as they dropped the bomb, as soon as they'd said, ... they'd settled, then, they, of course, they stopped. ...

Question: It is an obvious question, but what did you think of the Japanese since you were flying very high?

Jack Williams: ... I had no problems with that at all. ... An aviator doesn't see them. And you know that they're diving. You also know that they're diving on your ship and they're shooting at you. So I don't have any feelings for the Japanese. I accept the Japanese on whatever his basis is, ... not where he came from, not who his parents were, but on who he is, as far as that goes. And I don't have any problem with that.

Question: It sounds like you were also more detached being in the aviation.

Jack Williams: Absolutely.

Question: Whereas, on the ground, it is very hard to detach.

Jack Williams: Well, yeah, if a guy is coming at you with a bayonet it's a lot different between that and maybe shooting at you from a thousand yards away. No, I agree with you.

... For instance, you were asking about parties. ... See this was the group that went on the Bennington, but it was the second group out, okay? I didn't tell you about the skipper, because I didn't like the skipper. ... He was a real pain that man, he was an academy man. ... This was the skipper of the torpedo squadron that we organized and went on the Bennington in 1945.

Question: The one that you did the training with.

Jack Williams: Right, we did the training with.

Question: He was an Annapolis graduate?

Jack Williams: He was an Annapolis graduate, and ... he'd had a tugboat for a couple of years or something like that, and he went through flight training--no combat experience at all--and they assigned him to our squadron. Well, you can imagine there was, we knew things about combat that he could never know. And there was a certain amount of ... distrust and things like that.

Question: That's interesting to say. What did you learn in combat that you could not get from a textbook or training? What did you learn to do that they did not tell you in training?

Jack Williams: Well, I think that it, when I say ... in combat, because you're going out to combat again, there's certain things you have to do. There's a need to, you know, to develop, you know, support for each other, team spirit, ... you need to be very much aware of the fact that ... your life's at stake, that you've got people depending on you, that it's not a "me" business; it's an "us" business to survive. And he just had never learned that ... he was one of the ... academy boys that decided that he was going to make a name for himself, which he did. ... He and I were, I was flying on him, we had to ... made a strike over ... the western side of Japan, ... on a city, a town, and we were supposed to rendezvous at sea about, oh, maybe three or four miles out of anti-aircraft fire anyway. And so we made our strike, and I started to circle, and he stayed ... over the target area, which I thought was kind of dumb. So I headed on out and was going to go to the rendezvous point, and he said, "Get back in here," ... where he was. And I didn't want to get back in there because I could see they were shooting, you know. ... So I refused to come back in there. I stayed out there, and he was mad as hell. So when we got back to the ship, why, he chewed me out real bad, said [that] when he tells me to do something, I'm supposed to do it. I said, "Not if somebody is shooting at me ... and is going to hit me and when we're told to be somewhere else." And I said, "Go take a look at your plane." And he had shrapnel on the bottom of his damn wings, but I was supposed to sit there and wait while he gets shrapnel in his fanny. It just didn't work. So anyway, he didn't like me after that. And he gave me, ... not a good fitness report. I mean, it was passable, but not good, which it should have been. He did not understand that he could use the experience and the strength of those that had already been out there to make him a better skipper, better for everybody. ... Apparently, ... he never learned that at school.

Question: A lot of people who were in the naval reserve, like you, were struck at how rigid some academy people could be and also how academy people viewed themselves as the natural leaders of the navy.

Jack Williams: See, as a result ... of being in our group and we trained .. out in Fallon, Nevada and out in Alameda and what not. ... With that kind of leadership it's, you know, how do you describe a guy like that? ... You've seen these bullies, you know, the big bully, he doesn't really, ... he's got all the answers, but he's not really a member of the team. ... He's strictly out on his own. Well I think a lot of ... that happened, and the result is that when they tried to reorganize Torpedo Squadron One, like we did the First Torpedo Squadron. We're still having reunions after 20-25 years. ... The other groups tried repeatedly to get together, and nobody really wants any part of it. In the meantime, the skipper has died, you know. But the point is that there wasn't that relationship there. I mean, ... because your skipper, your leader is the one's going to determine how it goes, it's like a coach.

Question: So it sounds like the two squadrons were night and day.

Jack Williams: ... Yes they were. ... And the kids in the squadron were great. I mean, they were good as far as I was concerned. We got along well, but we really didn't have the feeling towards the skipper that we should of had.

... I'll just show you real quickly. This is the flyover, see? This is the surrender here, and this is where we were, see, at different times. This is our yearbook for the squadron. It shows you what we did, and who we were with; all the strikes we made at these different locations. One, I think I was about over here, ... this, of course, is ... Bill Halsey. This is taken out in Fallon, Nevada. ... And then my crew in front here, ... and this is another picture here of the whole group. ...

Question: It has been over 50 years.

Jack Williams: Yeah, ... that's just to show you the other side of the thing. When we were in ... winter flight training, one of the boys was going to get married. I don't know how, this guy right here, he's in the dog house ... and the other guy can't find him. But this is me playing the piano, at this ... bachelor party they were having at the officers' club. ... This is me right here. I had more to drink than I should have had that night, but.

Question: It sounds like you learned how to drink in the navy, a little bit.

Jack Williams: Well, you have to do that, I mean, after all. I don't now, but you had to then. ...

Question: Did you smoke at all in the service?

Jack Williams: Never smoked. ... I smoked a pipe one time to keep warm on a ship when it was cold[er] than hell; that's the only thing. [laughter] But ... this fellah right here, he got married. ... Well, he was in a section next to me. ... We were diving on a battleship ... in Kure Harbor, and he was here going down, and I was here going down, and I looked up, and he got hit with a phosphorous shell, and it just ... peeled back his wing, ... and he went straight in. ... So they went all the way in.

Question: Did you ever encounter fighters?

Jack Williams: I never had any, ... not that I'm aware of. If I had any fighters after me, I was gone, I was out of there. No, I never had fighters. ...

Question: Because I imagine when you were in training, '41, '42, that was the real fear.

Jack Williams: That's right it was a fear, it was a fear for us, too, and that's, see, that's why we had. And that's another thing too, believe it or not, we, of course, had fighter squadrons and ... they did weaves, back and forth over us, you know, going into the target and coming back. They protected us, ... they would pick up fighters, but they didn't get into where we were. ... When I first went with New York Life, I went to a meeting a number of years ago. I went to a meeting in New Orleans, I think it was, and ... it was a national meeting. And I happened to talk to some guy, and he said, "What did you do?" And I said, "Well I was a naval aviator." And he said, he was a naval aviator. And I said, "I was on the Yorktown." And he said, "I was on the Yorktown." "You're kidding; you're with New York Life." And he said, "What squadron?" And I said, "Torpedo One." And he said, "Well, I was in ... VF-1." I said, "You mean to tell me you were flying fighter cover for me all that time?" And he said, "Yeah." Name was ... Arthur Abrahamson and ... he was the president of the National Association of Life Underwriters a few years ago, with 150,000 members. Great guy! And we've been buddies ever since. But here he was, ... another guy, ... and the picture is over here.

Another guy, believe it or not, when I had lived with the Wrights in New Jersey, at the shore, where we swam at the shore, it [was] called ... Beacon's Beach, we'd go over there and there was a kid there that lived there, about my age, whose family owned a store in town. And we'd swim together and surf together. And so help me God, he ends up on the Yorktown, in Fighting One, and Duberstein's his name, and he was flying the same damn time that I was flying. ....

... Anyway, on this thing here, I'm actually Johnny in this story, I'm Joey in the book and the movie, but Johnny here. She wrote it anonymously because she didn't know what my family would say because she talks about, you know, see I was apparently arrested for derailing a freight train and other things when I was a kid.

Question: Really?

Jack Williams: Yeah, you're going to get a kick out of this book. Anyway.

Question: This is when you were in Pennsylvania?

Jack Williams: Yeah, ... I can't tell the whole story, I guess, literally. But this on the Bennington, is that still on?

Question: Yeah.

Jack Williams: On the Bennington, these are just some combat pictures. The squadron did a good job, but one of the things that was interesting here. ... This is the ready room ... over here, and this was one of the prisoner of war camp[s] that we dropped at. But then, see this is the flyover and it says here, Torpedo One and all the planes over the Missouri.

Question: Oh, so this is your plane?

Jack Williams: Yeah, right. So that was quite an honor, ... an experience. At the time, we didn't realize what we were doing.

Question: Did you know the surrender was going on when you did the flyover?

Jack Williams: Oh yeah, ... sure that was all planned. This is the guy who got home before we did. ...

Question: How did he get home before you did?

Jack Williams: Well he was shot down, taken prisoner and two weeks later, they let him go. The navy shipped him home, but this is kind of interesting. This is the ... Bennington yearbook, kind of like the one you saw on the Yorktown. It's a little bit different. And it's just a different world. The plane I flew first was like this, Torpedo One. ... And like I said, .. I enjoyed the Bennington part more, because of finishing up the war, and being involved with the prisoner of war camp and all that sort of thing. But the Yorktown has always kind of been ... our first love, and Margaret loves Charleston, South Carolina, so it's an excuse to go there. But you need to go there with your interest in this thing.

Question: No, I definitely will, because I have been to the Intrepid, and that actually has helped me, in terms of questions to ask.

Jack Williams: You are going to get, a whole different world when you go down there, I'll tell you. Not only is it a museum, but they made ... what they call the Arlington of carrier aviation. So all the ships that no longer are in being, that were sunk or dismantled, ... there are bronze plaques put there, and they list on everyone one of them the names of all the people that were killed on board-- I mean, all the ship's company and everybody. And then, now the way it is, if you go there to visit, and you have, like, say your father was on one of those ships, and he was killed, then they have a special folder for that ship and they ... have a list of all the people that were killed, ... it's a copy of what's on the ... bronze. And then they give you that, but they also give you a pass to go aboard the ship for the rest of your life. They have a lot of good programs down there, lot of scout programs. They actually have scouts come down there and spend a week at a time, and troops and things like that. ... It's a great opportunity, but anyway, the Yorktown ... was really the high point, you might say. But when finally the war was over, then everybody got out, but I needed some money to go back to Rutgers to finish up, that was in ...'45.

Question: But you had the GI Bill.

Jack Williams: Right, I had the GI Bill, and I needed that, but I was also married.

Question: And you figured that would not be enough.

Jack Williams: That wouldn't be enough, so I stayed in the navy for two more years, to '47. Most of that time I was at Corpus Christi Naval Air Station, where I'd gotten my wings. ... I did some work in the Link trainer unit, which ... shows you how it is when you're flying on the ground, with the Public Works Department. It's anything to put in time and just to keep your flight training, so. But ... when that was over, I just went back.

Question: It sounds like the peacetime was also a bit frustrating in the sense that ...

Jack Williams: ... They didn't know what they wanted to do. The peacetime navy wasn't prepared for, well, nobody was prepared for demobilization. I mean, who are you going to keep around and what's your future needs, and all that sort of thing, in the service. No, I had no interest in the navy, and I go back to ... the way it started. ... I get orders from somebody says you're going to go here, and then somebody else says you're going there, and I continue to go here/there. ... Why was I not afraid of flying off a carrier, for instance, when I was afraid of heights and things like that? Because it never occurred to me to be. You know, that's true, ... somebody asked me the other day, "Weren't you afraid to fly?" I said, "Nobody ever told me that I couldn't, so I did it." And I think that's a good way to, I think that's a good thing for life. You have a lot of experiences if you take that approach. Then, if you say, "Well, I can't do that or this," you limit yourself. And I encourage others in the same environment. ... But I enjoyed my time in the service to the extent that you can enjoy your time in the service, during that time.

Question: Some guys say they enjoyed their time in the service, but they never saw combat, and I thought, well, of course, you are going to enjoy your time in the service.

Jack Williams: We had good times when we weren't in combat, you know, we had great parties.

Interviewed: 12/16/97

Edited: 4/30/98 by Jack M. Williams